Death markets now banned

@jsevigny - Wherever you stand on this, there's no need to be abusive. You'll just be written off as a troll.

While your examples have some value in this thread jsevigny, the personal attacks are way out of line. If you can't articulate your idea without attacking the author you just take away from your argument.

I initially found the death pool questions a bit tasteless, but then at the same time it became obvious that the lack of willingness to look at the consequesnces of a course of action is what the Iraq invasion. I think it's valuable to look at things like whether an event will result in death (be it an innauguration, a volcano, or a hurricane making landfall), as it may be something that emphisizes the risks. On the other side, I agree that there needs to be a degree of caution regarding death pools that bet on whether Amy Winehouse will see 2010. That's the stuff that leads to a posting on Fark, which I'm sure is not the ideal of any potential sponsor.

I understand that this is a business first and a community second. However, the members are here because of the community, not because of the potenial to earn revenue from sponsors, and without that audience, there's no call for sponsorship. I was a bit taken aback at the lack of warning before he ban. People buy into ideas when they think their input matters. In the future, perhaps you could post in the comments linking to the forum on relevant questions and open the discussion before implementing a ban. It would help with refining the solution and generate more buy in from the users, thus help maintain the sense of community.

In any case, I'm willing to live with a ban if it still allows for some latitude. I agree that betting on the date or manner of someone's death is in bad taste, but I still think there's a value to looking at the consequences of a course of action. I think there's value in observing the trends in people's thinking, which means examining whether or not an event will have a fatal consequence. When a Hubdubber asks a question related to the number of US casualties in a given conflict over the next month or two, I hope the person putting them in harm's way is asking the same question. Maybe it makes a difference, maybe it doesn't, but it's something worth thinking about.

If you talk about it in work, at the pub and home, you should be able to bet on it on Hubdub...

@frogchop -- your ideas about what is "in" and "out" of line are of no interest to me. If someone posts moronic and hypocritical comments about an issue, I'm going to call that person a moron and a hypocrite. I think it's more than obvious that I can articulate my arguments without attacking my "opponent." I'll make the decision as to whether or not to do so on a "case by case basis."

Anyone who posts a question like Will Kurt Cobain be smoked in a spliff?, and then argues against death pools from a point of view of taste and deferance is either moronic, hypocritical, or most probably, just a douchebag who deserves to be called out.

As for the idea that "personal attacks" "take away from my argument," that's just goofy talk and you know better. First, even you found validity in my argument. Second, when dealing with persons, any criticisms or attacks are going to be personal. I find this impersonal detachment from the issues at hand far more offensive than any of the "personal" insults I've been dealt since playing the increasingly constricted game of hubdub.

You wrote, "I initially found the death pool questions a bit tasteless ..."

At what point did you change your way of thinking and place these two bets?

frogchop predicted Britney Spears (H$10 at 1%) on Death pool: Who will die first?
frogchop predicted Lindsey Lohan (H$10 at 1%) on Death pool: Who will die first?

You wrote, "I agree that betting on the date or manner of someone's death is in bad taste ..."

So why did you place a bet on "Will Ted kennedy still be alive on August 1st 2009?"

Do you feel guilty about any of the questions below, given that you bet on all of them?

Will the plague claim more al-Qaida?
How many people will have died in the Zimbabwe cholera epidemic?
How many executions will there be in the US in 2009?
Will anyone be killed by a shark in US waters before September 2009?

Just one question for you, flipflopper. Were you wrong then or are you wrong now?

@sqlman: dude, you know I see your point but here's the deal....we ALREADY HAD safeguards in place to prevent Q's that read like "Will authorities count the fetuses of unborn Jonestown babies killed in utero toward the final death toll?" from having any lifespan of which to speak.

Just look at the fate of my 'tiny little bombs' and the madonna beheading q. Those q's were allowed to stand after tiny little edits took place. I've learned to accept that as part of the deal here. But getting a q to the point it's a go is a bitch already and now we're finding new ways to further impersonalize very real events and limit the creativity of those of us participating on this site.

@ryanj, you say "...Nigel alluded to ... a logical business thought process. Hubdub needs to grow, and if one of our main focuses is the American market we can't have markets on how many soldiers will die in Iraq, or how many people will die in the next airplane accident."

I say that type of 'sensitivity' is precisely what the Bush administration counted on to prevent introspection of real time negative events so they could also further THEIR corporate profit agenda and I find it remarkable that a young entrepreneur from the UK would adopt his marketing policies with the same authoritarian dictatorship style. Bare minimum this particular policy should have been brought to 'the community' in the hopes of achieving some harmony, consensus and full understanding of these now rather vague guidelines as frog chop pointed out:

"I understand that this is a business first and a community second. However, the members are here because of the community, not because of the potenial to earn revenue from sponsors, and without that audience, there's no call for sponsorship. I was a bit taken aback at the lack of warning before he ban. People buy into ideas when they think their input matters. In the future, perhaps you could post in the comments linking to the forum on relevant questions and open the discussion before implementing a ban. It would help with refining the solution and generate more buy in from the users, thus help maintain the sense of community. "

WE DO PLAY A PART HERE. And I for one would have far more HD dollars if I were paid a dollar every time I was told no, edited or voided by an administrator. The hoops one jumps thru already to produce a sound, socially acceptable Q are rigid enough and in my opinion they were working fine as they were.

All they really needed to do was perhaps have us simply do what I do with the bulk of my q's now anyhow....submit for review prior to publishing. Most of the Administrators are willing to look at Q's that aren't even in their category to help, so this difference in time zones among us all is less an issue for users wanting to write and publish in a reasonable amount of time. Yes, this was a little too big brother already for me but I'd found a way to make it work at least. Now I just feel an even greater part of the creativity that can go into a Q is being pre-edited.

Just the WAY this is coming down is enough to make me start my own negative publicity campaign outside the confines of this site.

This may indeed be a business first and a community second, a sad and cynical comment to begin with given the number of friends I've made here.

What's more tragic, though, is the thought among hubdub entrepeneurs that the nature of questions and dialogue on this site has anything to do with profitability.

Let me give you a class in business 101. What you are selling IS NOT content. That's what newspapers do and book publishers do.

What you are selling is sponsorship of a game. The more popular that game is, the more sponsorship you will get. The more bland, watered down, and difficult the content becomes, the less popular the game will be, and sponsorship goes down the tubes.

It's a bitch to make money on the Internet but you folks need to get someone in there with an MBA to explain how business works in the real world. There simply is no link between profitability and content in this case and that point appears so obvious to me that I suspect claims to the contrary are made merely to mask administrator/owner prudeness.

does this mean no questions on how prolific some serial killer is going to be ?

jsevigny, I don't know why you got off that way at me.
what I said was:
> "Death, in all its forms, is always news" - no, it is not.
> It is not because there is something like respect and deference.

To show that I am a hypocrite (or because you think my questions are distasteful - I'm not sure), you listed a few of my questions. I'll comment them:

Divorce kidney, where will it end?
- has it to do with death? no. It's an hilarious, very remarkable court case
When will Kim Jong-Il have died?
- goes back to reportings of an author claiming Kim Jong-Ill had already pasted away
What will the Wii-Brator be sold for?
- okay, maybe this is really distastefull :-) but can be worse
Mystery Illness - How many passangers will be killed?
- uuuhhhh mystery illness ....
Will Kurt Cobain be smoked in a spliff?
- PR stunt of an artist, does anyone really believe she smoked the ashes of Kurt Cobain?

Now what all these markets have in common is: They were tangible news stories as I created markets to them. They do not focus on living people (you can still argue about Jong Ill, though) who are going to die, or at specific personalities.

If you wanted to show the most disgusting questions I made, btw, why not mention this: http://www.hubdub.com/m10735/How_much_will_Brigitte_Nielsens_fat_sell_for ?

And now to the funniest part of your statement. I actually have created a Death Pool question, which asks for a "will X die by Y" - only not in this explicit manner. Obviously, I created the market in a way with "respect and deference", that even you didn't find it.


I'll give you a second go at it :-)

(Hint: comment by capecodviking "Thank you much for posting an amazing question.")

@Krujis -- you don't know why I got off at you that way? I thought my writing was clear. You may be beyond help. I will give you a little outline. If you're still confused, I can draw a little picture for you later on but I need to go borrow my nephew's crayons first so you'll have to give me some time.

I said death was always news.

You argued that death wasn't always news because "there is something like respect and deference." Strange sentence but whatever.

I mentioned obituaries and offered you a list of today's news stories dealing with death. Then I listed your questions which showed neither respect nor deference, and prove that you're a hypocrite.

The fact that I have to bring this down to Sesame Street level for you proves that you're a moron, too.