Will Israel invade Gaza in 2008?

j, i was just trying to decide if i should create this question. glad to see it up.

It's a strange one. The article talks about weather conditions and upcoming elections. I have no idea which candidate an invasion would help or hurt because I haven't paid attention to the subtleties of the race. It does seem that they'd avoid attacking during Chanukah. It's also diffuclt to judge whether unnamed defense officials are just saber rattling or if they intend to go through with this. I found it very difficult to place odds on this question.

I had misgivings bout which way I should go too. So I bet 100 on yes, they will invade then I pulled it before I went to bed. Now I see they're tearing the place up. Should've stuck with my gut feel that Israel would open the border then strike.

So now I'm trying to find tv coverage and all I'm finding is Caroline Kennedy's shot at Senator, some missing chick from a cruise ship, the Santa killer story and some dude that is starting a recycling business.

Oh yeah...and some weather stuff...but now, back to YOUR money.....

does invade mean by foot soldiers or by air?
cause israel just bombed the .............. out of gaza
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/27/israel-launches-air-strik_n_153664.html this was at 318pm est

air attacks are no invasion - there must be troops on the ground occupying and controlling the area IMO
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion)

Wow then how come when the Japanaese bombed Pearl Harbor it was called an invasion?

i'll take princetn over wikipedia any day:

invading - incursive: involving invasion or aggressive attack; "invasive war"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

hostile attack and encroachment of city or country
www.syvum.com/cgi/online/serve.cgi/squizzes/history/hist2.html

and in order to bomb gaza did israel not have to either fly over gaza air space or at least have their missles fly over the air space?

and in the case of an airplane...jet,,,war plane etc f15 last i looked they are all personed by pilots.

if it were only via enemy forces on ground..then i would assume that if a pilot of israe's air foce has to land in gaza or gets shot down and dies it would be considered invasion then because an enemy soldier is on the dirt?

ok i quote:
"A truce between Israel and Hamas, which took effect in June, began unraveling in early November, following an Israeli cross-border raid in Gaza. Since then, Gaza militants have fired scores of rockets. Israel held off on a major response, apparently in hopes that a new truce could be negotiated."
Ok so Israel had already invaded when they did the 'cross-border' raid in Gaza? If so this question was mute when it started.
If not, then why when Israel invades is it not called invading? And if they started it? Why is bush telling the Hamas to stop?

That is like: child number one slammin his fist into child number 2's face.....child number two responding by tapping child number one on the shoulder....and Mommie Dearest screaming at child number two to stop picking on child #1

when it comes to push a shove . israel has the backing of bush

I better could'nt have said it myself. bush may as well fly the israeli flag here.

Did not Hamas violate the cease fire agreement reached in July, by sending rockets into Israel?

Israel is probably the only true ally that the US has in the middle east.
Probably for a variety of reasons, every other middle eastern country hates the US.
I believe the US should support its true allies in difficult times.

who calls Pearl Harbor an invasion?

consp, your quote says "encroachment". it seems that that word has different meanings:
"any entry into an area not previously occupied" aka occupation
"entry to another's property without right or permission" aka intrusion
Further, I said occupation and controlling by ground forces, not "enemy forces on ground" - dead or alive :)

for the rest I think we should read this question as "in the remaining days of 2008", as the question was created last Friday and obviously aim at the new conflicts after the 6 months of ceasefire.

oh, btw
http://www.onevoicemovement.org/

It seems to me that hubdub conversations fall apart for one of two main reasons. Either I enter the picture, or the debate turns merely semantic. This is an example of the latter.

Well, in this case getting semantic is part of the hubdub world. just because you created a question with a wording which is understood differently by some players (which happens all the time) a consensus must be found on what was actually intended. In this case, dean says that flying airplanes in the territory and bombing infrastructure would already count as "invasion". thus, the question should settle "Yes" already. My opinion is, that invading is defined differently (as explained above).

A quote from the article you linked in the background: "Israeli defense officials say politicians have approved a large-scale incursion into the territory once rainy conditions clear. But at the same time, Israel appeared receptive to international pressure against an invasion, opening the Gaza border Friday to allow in deliveries of humanitarian aid."
To my understanding, the "incursion" has happened already with quite large air attacks. An "invasion" has thus not happened, but still is likely.

@krujis....dean said encroachment. that wasn't me.

@jsevigny....you're not jinxing these conversations with your presence, but i do admire the ego that would entertain that idea.

offering my own thoughts on this, i think your comments are both well thought out and wicked direct. people who are incapable of either or both tend to react adversely when slammed in the face with the pie of logic.

it appears i misunderstood the finer points of this question myself...when i posted about being upset i pulled my yes bet i wrongly assumed the question had suspended...my multiple power outages at my house have really upset my access to news relating to anything but weather. i figured the massive airstrike WAS an invasion.

having given this a little run over in my head i believe 'attacked' does not equal 'invaded'. it's just one of those questions that at a glance creates this type of confusion. i have to wonder how often in life something we hear takes on a different meaning because we don't kick it around like we're doing here with this...

note to self: pay better attention in future.

wow....nasty language and I got called out for using bitch

Comment deleted that violated terms of use. Please remember to keep the language civil.

So for the purposes of this question is "invasion" defined as ground troops moving in to hold territory? And eidos2006 wash your mouth out with soap or I'll tell your mother :-)

too late. destry is drafting a letter to eidos' mom right now.

i've decided to pick up where eidos left off, however.

israel gets a pass EVERYTIME. we never seem to get the full story here in the US. israel kicked this off sure as they did the events that led to their last bloody 'incursion' AND invasion into lebanon. even Ha'aretz is reporting this.

and yes, they don't just start it...they then spin it as if they are ever the victim when their over kill does nothing but inflame and incite.

The country that broke the ORIGINAL truce, perhaps you may have forgotten was israel they have just made this point on our tele from a aid worker. and (con) i can well imagine you not being given at all times what is going on.

aww poor krafty.... i am sorry u got hollered at for callin me a bitch :)

i invite ALL PEOPLE here to read & know the truth!!
not my words but your words
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/12/28/gaza.humanitarian/index.html#cnnSTCText
more than 300 dead & 700 injured in gaza massacre mostly women & children , massacre against humanity

Hi everyone,

I saw that this market was in some need of clarification as too what invasion would count as so I've just edited the market to make it clear. Since the market was made while the airstrike were ongoing they don't count but a ground incursion will, if substantiated by news reports.

Just a note as well. I saw that destry had to delete a malicious comment, I know the issues surrounding a market such as this are very sensitive so I'd urge caution to users to not get too tied up in the rhetoric, and keep the comments clean albeit opinionated.

Regards,
Ryan

I agree with the ruling. Invasion means boots, or at the very least tank treads, on the ground. I'm not sure what the heck an incursion is. I'm not going to offer any opinions on this issue because I'm in enough trouble already over my recent criticism of The Christ. I will say that I agree with Conspiracy, whatever he said, even if he was wrong, which he may have been for all I know. God bless us, each and every one.

incursion
noun foray, raid, invasion, penetration, infiltration, inroad, irruption

up date does not look good/
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24851191-15084,00.html

ok.. it is time for a group hug and the singing of kumbaya!
hugs koolcraft..... :)

ok now let me ask this quesiton:
Declaring war does not an invasion make?

NOPE. I declare war all the time but I never once invaded anything.

consp, did you actually declare war on - or did you just invade hubdub ?

:-P

Well, since it's been decided 'boots on ground' are what qualify an invasion I am technically unable to 'invade'...try as I might.

I may take a class in hacking though so I can do some Orwellian revisionism thing with a few of my more foolish bets....

FYI: Hubdub is headquartered in Edinburgh, UK.
might be warmer there than where you live at this time ...

I'm at a solid 11 celsius here so I'm ok now. Our winter blast was a freak gig here.
Hopefully it's over.

did the Germans declare war on Poland or did the just go ahead a bomb them and then say oops beg your pardon.
on the basis of the question who will declare war first answer (Israel) i have flagged it

Does this question settle on East Coast time or Pacific or is it based on New Years in the state of Israel?
Please clarify.
Go Israel!!!!

2.2.3 Time, Time Zones and Geography
If the question is on a prediction that happens in a particular locale it will be assumed that it refers to local time, unless otherwise specified.
http://www.hubdub.com/public/rules

@38 very good point - considering how many troops and tanks are ready for an invasion it is looking far more when than if.

@ the rest of you, unless you have lived in the middle east where do you think you really have any idea as to which people are in the right. There is far more history and hatred in that part of the world than possibly the rest of the world put together - how can you possible understand it unless you have experienced it? It's great that this subject evokes passion and patriotism, but I cannot help but feel that most people's comments are extremely misguided

so, based on that, Israel has until midnight of the last night of 2008 Israel local time... is Barak aware of this deadline?

@Ryan= you tell that to the poles that they where not at war when they bombed first that they where not at war and how come the admin is playing double standards here?
http://alpha.hubdub.com/m11148/
you decided or some one that israel had started a war
a few $h dollars at stake was there.?

To settle the one above part of the conditions where
It must be an official declaration of war
so this must be likewise,

Suspend date: this Thursday 1:59am CST (1 day to go

Nuke Palistine!

I don't think this is the right place to call for a nuclear attack.

Especially if you are a US senator, aiming at the position of the governor of Texas.

OTOH, hey: Nuke Texas! Yee Ha!

Yes, by all means lets nuke Texas. I've had it with that state. The only decent thing to come out of that backwater hole was Ann Richards.

Very good.....I'll be sure to work extra hard to see that Dan Patrick doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell for Governor of Texas in 2010. I'll also be cutting and pasting voiceoftexas's nasty little pro nuke comments every chance I get.

Fool.

Ignorant Texan (Representative of Senator Dan Patrick, http://www.danpatrick.org/contactus.aspx) wants to use WMD on a place he doesn't know enough about to even spell the name of.

@tvot- you are a real asshole still you have one other in your state that is also. what a statement to make and i don't care if they take this statement of. get a life, or get out join, the army and go to israel and join them , or better still go to afghan and join the Taliban b Richard cranium

Amazing how intolerant the kumbaya left is of other's views when those views don't parallel their own.

ARE you saying in effect we are intolerant? / or are you going along with the nuke option?

Dan Patrick did not say nuke Palestine... thevoiceoftexas_org said nuke Palestine.

"Nuke Palestine" pales in comparison to offensive comments from Muslim extremists directed at Israel and the West and all other free societies that refuse to bend over and kiss the Qur'an.

Go Israel!!! Go thevoiceoftexas_org!!!

@fof - you surprise me with that comment, i think you meant Koran. but then we all either don't now what we are talking about.
i choice to believe you are stirring

I found it on the internet, so it must be true :-D

Qur’an (Arabic: القرآن‎ al-qur’ān, literally "the recitation"; also sometimes transliterated as Quran, Qur’ān, Koran, Alcoran or Al-Qur’ān) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur'an

Oooopsss... you'll have to copy/paste link... or the 'an is chopped off... Qur has a different wikipedia entry

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur'an

I don't give a rats ass if voto said this or dan patrick said it. voto is a patrick supporter and if this is the element patrick supports then he needs to be blocked.

My anger like most of the worlds grows with each day Israel continues this massacre.

Israel needs to have their aid cut to ZERO by the US gov't. No more weapons sales. No more 'Israel first' policy. They ain't worth it.

@conspiracy:

massacre? where is your outrage at the Israeli civilians that Hamas has massacred - or the 10,400 rockets they fired into Israel over the course of the last 3 years... at civilian targets such as schools and shopping centers no less.

curios in re:52 My views on nukes aren't the point. I find it ironic that those that preach tolerance are so often intolerant of people whose views differ from their own. Not liking opposinge views is fine, but intolerance of the opposition is...well,...intolerable. ;) Sorry, couldn't resist.

Sorry NN, I'm finding it impossible to work up any sympathy for Izit Shitrik.

The Palestinian civilians are the victims here.

I agree, insofar as Palestinian civilians are victims of the Hamas propoganda war. They have to deal with Hamas thugs hiding target rich areas behind civilians in a display of cowardice almost unparalled in history. However, the Israeli civilians are also victims by the hands of these same Hamas.

Meanwhile, Israeli government is ensuring that humanitarian supplies are getting to Gaza. See truckloads arriving, as in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pof1y7tlCIM

I think Voiceoftexas may be a shape shifter. As for humanitarian supplies, that's a bunch of propaganda crap. They shipped in 17 truck loads right before bombing the hell out of Gaza -- this after refusing to let medical supplies enter for weeks. Send in the band-aids, then the bombs. Nice try.

A Hamas representative in the PA legislative council this year expressed pride in the fact that women and children are used as human shields in fighting Israel. He described it as part of a "death industry" at which Palestinians excel, and explained that the Palestinians "desire death" with the same intensity that Israelis "desire life."

http://newsblaze.com/story/20081229092838zzzz.nb/topstory.html

The Palestinian civilians are not innocent victims...They elected Hamas.

@notable - Well then... I hope the Palestinians and the Israelis obtain their desires.

NN, I am not going to try to defend all that is clearly wrong with using civilians as shields. But honestly...these people are being caged in this little area, where exactly might the best place to build an army where there is no land? They have a right to be able to defend themselves.

Damn straight you'd wind up doing the same thing in the same circumstances. Tell me if the Indians reclaimed YOUR land and scrunched your ass into a sardine box then decided if and when you're space could accept food, fuel and medical stuff you'd just lay down for it.

If Israel is allowing aid in it's probably a dual purposed reason like A) it makes them look slightly human and B) it's a PLOY to distract yet again.

If they were so freaking down with the idea of allowing aid why'd they ram the boat McKinney was on and F it up when it was clearly a peaceful mission?

Why'd they do exactly what jsevigny pointed out on Saturday with aid?

Why'd they START this by bombing a tunnel? I'd have tunnels everywhere if I were a Pali.

I hear the poor little Jew stories about how they can't take a shower for fear a warning siren will go off and they wont make it into their bomb shelters. How nice they have a place to go....

How is it that you are so cold you don't see the other side to this tragedy?
How is it that you can find a belief system that supports a regime that f's with people, provokes them into a response then spends days trying to level every building they have? Do you ever see this ending if they don't allow Palestine to exist, to rule themselves and to have hope for a future?

Israeli's bulldoze these peoples orchards for absolutely NO reason. They've taken their land, their livelihood, their ability to survive and the results are devastating. Better to have made friends then to have created a world full of enemies. There's merit in why they are hated as they are.

Israel trusts NO ONE and that includes US. Mark my words, this dog is going to bite us like every other regime we've propped up in the past.

and we elected BHO

Yes, we did, very unlike how we wound up with King George.

fingers...guess the Palestinians aren't the only ones who got snookered, huh?

I understand why you would think that. However, even the Palistinians know Hamas is to blame. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLIdxF-GHWw for one example.

Israel has been very tolerant of their shenanigans, but even the most tolerant will come to their limits. They have built housing, given them land, allowed them self-government, moved their own citizens out, and so forth. They just get shot at in return.

I would love to create a question: will this question hit 100 comments during 2008? but it would be way too easy to game ;-)

Here we go from King George the socialist to BHO the socialist... wheee

Least I got a shot at getting something out of the new socialist coming to town.

Who is king George who ever- the Israel's where given the land they are on know.
but who broke the inital agreement in 1967.

King George is the current head of state in our monarchy.

@curios, King George is George Bush. We sometimes refer to him that way as he has the arrogance of an inbred Monarch.

I don't recall the indigenous people be allowed to vote on handing the land over to a bunch of Jews for creation of a new country. I don't care if it was controlled by the Brits. I will never accept the grounds on which Israel came into existence as justifiable or legitimate.

This is the main issue, Conspiracy. The formation of Israel was badly f-d up from the beginning by Western powers including the British and the French. If nobody wanted the Jews after WWII, why did the Palestinians get stuck with them? Then again, the United States was formed the same way. Nobody wanted the Pilgrims either. But the poor indians got shafted. Israel, like the United States, was founded on the bones and ashes of the people who lived there before. Maybe it's that common history that binds us to Israel at the hip, like deformed, out of control siamese twins. Or maybe it's just the whole, invented history of Christianity and Juadaism, which even a five-year-old can tell you read like comic books. Rainbows, oceans parting, a man dying for our sins, the God who never returned ....

my thoughts are that most of our trouble in the Palestinian/Israel conflict is the cause of all our troubles over there. politicians here are terrified of the jewish vote and economic control here.

As far as I'm concerned Gaza doesn't have any victims in it. They elected known terrorists to lead them that shoot rockets at Israeli civilians year round and use whatever power they have to build more rockets instead of light up their hospitals, then they re-elected them after it was clear that the sanctions were both warranted and not yet strict enough. At the point where you re-elect terrorists bringing this kind of trouble on your nation I have no sympathy for any of them accept the minority who tried to elect others.

As for who broke the truce this summer, it was Hamas, sending rockets into Israel for weeks before Israel attacked back. Also, instead of trying to kill civilians the Israelis drop pamphlets everywhere three days in advance so civilians can try to evacuate, a measure that I think is ridiculous but none the less has saved some civilian lives.

@ conspiracy2riot: I don't care where their nation came from now. That is clearly in the past, and they don't need anyone's permission to defend themselves against bloodthirsty terrorists that shoot rockets into thier nation. Can you imagine the ruin we would bring to Cuba if they shot a rocket into Florida? just one? The Israeli's have been far to patient with these terrorists to this point...

Fair enough to say that not everyone in Gaza voted for Hamas.

come on its
Thursday, January 1, 2009 at 1:33:35 AM EST
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happy new year now settle

Happy New Year. Settle!!